tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post5107191006908013466..comments2024-03-05T08:25:01.029-05:00Comments on Poker Grump: To be mean, or not to be mean--that is the questionRakewellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15873391354585352712noreply@blogger.comBlogger20125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-44117963366359903602011-12-25T06:13:13.443-05:002011-12-25T06:13:13.443-05:00My brother is much like Grump. He's very dire...My brother is much like Grump. He's very direct, he expresses his opinions pretty freely, he applies logic at all times, and seriously rubs people wrong at times while having no idea he's doing it.<br /><br />I'm like that too, but to a lesser degree. I'm not quite as "afflicted".<br /><br />People who know us come to realize this and stop getting quite as annoyed by it eventually (or they flee from us). And I've had friends explain to people I've upset "oh, that's just how he is--he doesn't mean anything by it and he's about the nicest guy you'll ever know, if you can just put up with this sorta thing from time to time."<br /><br />I see several things in Grump's post that trigger my "beyond informative" warning. Lightning36 summarized those sections that should have been left out or worded differently. It comes across as rather snarky even if the goal was more toward humor.<br /><br />As well, there's just the basic problem of taking someone's post and making an example out of it. And not a good example. People love to be quoted when folks are giving 'em a pat on the back. The emotional response is quite the opposite when someone points at something you've written and says "that's a perfect example of how NOT to do it".<br /><br />I wouldn't have done things as Grump did. But my brother would, and he would be just as puzzled by why Josie is upset.<br /><br />Grump deserves a break. But I also hope I don't ever give him cause to pick apart the random silly things I sometimes write. One of the great things about Twitter is you can't get too very "mean" in 140 characters.@ApolloAVPnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-21142052035928104222011-12-24T11:49:23.647-05:002011-12-24T11:49:23.647-05:00Yeah, its pretty sad if Grump does not still reali...Yeah, its pretty sad if Grump does not still realize exactly what he did wrong. People make mistakes...but what is worse is rationalizing to yourself why it was not meant to be mean. Couldn't really figure out from the LONG apology post...Does Grump still think he was not mean?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-54600550311727460332011-12-24T08:51:00.764-05:002011-12-24T08:51:00.764-05:00Finally, a somewhat strange apology, but it is in ...Finally, a somewhat strange apology, but it is in there somewhere amongst the sea of thoughts where you can't imagine yourself being "mean"....wow!<br /><br />You may be up on your poker knowledge but you are way way DOWN on your knowledge of people and their feelings away from the felt. A poker nerd if you will.<br />Nice attempt but you still seem like you have no clue what you said that was so wrong right?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-90354996774906076272011-12-23T16:43:38.393-05:002011-12-23T16:43:38.393-05:00If you weren't mean, I wouldn't be followi...If you weren't mean, I wouldn't be following your blog - there's enough bland out there.Wolynskihttps://www.blogger.com/profile/04428782184898610640noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-37938618375441375922011-12-23T09:13:02.334-05:002011-12-23T09:13:02.334-05:00Grumpy Baby, that's all you had to say!
I k...Grumpy Baby, that's all you had to say! <br /><br />I know you were just being you and the last thing I want is for you to feel you have to treat me with kid gloves. I do not want that at all. I love your blog because it is the way it is, but me being me, I got hurt and offended. I'm glad to know there was no intention of malice behind it. I appreciate this post very much because along with a definition of the word mean (damn, you're analytical) deep within this post are the two words "I'm sorry" which means alot to me because it tells me you care that you upset me.<br /><br />Oh and I had to laugh about your paraphasing of my words to you because you took out ALL the f bombs. :) I should hire you full time as my editor. You should explain to CardGrrl that I wasn't actually talking to you so much as swearing at you, and for that I do apologize. :) I tend to be a bit passionate.<br /><br />I really appreciate this post....and you. You've done a lot for me Grump, and I haven't forgotten that. <br /><br />Thank you to all who commented and I do mean all. There are certainly two sides to this and the comments that supported Grump's post provided clarity to me and I do appreciate that. Lightning36's comment (and grange's, edgie's, brendan's and anony's) probably explains my reaction best.<br /><br />Ugh enough about this - I'm coming to Vegas this summer for the wsop and YOU are buying me dinner - and baby we're playing poker, as I still regret that we didn't spend nearly enough time together last time I was in town.<br /><br />Merry Christmas to All!<br /><br />Josie<br /><br />PS, That Cardgrrl must have the patience of a saint! :)<br /><br />PPS Hi Grange!!!Josiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00226640652091292377noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-64314409043793882162011-12-23T02:50:32.014-05:002011-12-23T02:50:32.014-05:00Math can't be mean or kind. It can only be pro...Math can't be mean or kind. It can only be proven or disproven (or be proven that there is no proof :p)<br /><br />However, once you have the correct answer it is up to us, the communicators, how to present it. This is a dilemma I continually face as a scientist. Eg, opposite views get equal time even when they are rudiculous (as your UFO article). It is a fine line to walk. In a week where C Hitchens died sets the example perfectly. He was mostly right and very intelligent, but the way he said things polarized many people. Of course, it is also what got him noticed.<br /><br />As a teacher I feel the need to point out mistakes, as a coach, I feel the need to let the person correct them, but as a fellow human, I have to try to try to remain humble in the process, as I am a student in the game of life, too.bellatrix78https://www.blogger.com/profile/17286560853976919039noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-32892326170548657632011-12-22T19:19:21.285-05:002011-12-22T19:19:21.285-05:00Also a huge fan. I didn't think the post was m...Also a huge fan. I didn't think the post was mean in the least. This from another female perspective. You lead me to Josie's blog. I enjoy hers as well but usually only read her when reminded by one of your posts. If she was hurt hopefully she is now over it. If anyone apologized to me more than you just did in this post I would think something was wrong with our relationship.ccnddhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12375639123845257621noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-15334365715665598292011-12-22T18:23:12.858-05:002011-12-22T18:23:12.858-05:00Grump,
I think you've missed the mark on this...Grump,<br /><br />I think you've missed the mark on this one as to why the post was <i>mean</i>. It isn't that the specific prose you used was particularly mean (although it was quite insensitive), rather the "meanness" is born from the choice to critique a peer in a socially unacceptable way. <br /><br />It's generally considered socially "mean" to:<br />1. Dress down a subordinate in front of their peers;<br />2. Criticize friends or colleagues in front of other friends or clients;<br />3. Expose a friend's flaws in a public way.<br /><br />I don't know what the motivation behind your post was, other than to show your readers that you're fairly adept at poker math. Certainly your post didn't reveal any new insight or provide your readers with a compelling story other than a blow-by-blow account of Josie's mistakes. As you say, perhaps you do have a burning desire to "find and eradicate error", but you need to weigh your actions based on that desire properly against potential damage to your relationships.<br /><br />Certain things are better done in private. You probably should have contacted Josie in relative private and allowed *her* to write a mea culpa herself. At a minimum, you should have at least given her a heads up that you were planning this and didn't mean it as a personal attack, but rather as an educational lesson for your readers. Instead, you outlined her mistakes in biggest public manner available to you for no reason other than your compulsion to "eradicate error". That's not a nice thing to do to a friend, all stop. It doesn't matter quite so much what you wrote, but moreso that you wrote it at all, and that's your big mistake on this one. As such, IMHO your mea culpa missed the mark.BigDnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-48276189279806636592011-12-22T17:33:41.232-05:002011-12-22T17:33:41.232-05:00I think there's a very simple explanation of w...I think there's a very simple explanation of why Josie thought your post was mean. You impersonally ripped apart a post of hers in public, when you really should have alerted her to the errors in private. You shouldn't blog/criticize friends or friends' posts in such a public and clinical manner. Soft touch, Rakewell, soft touch.Brendanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/07461698052412813495noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-9927456828418074582011-12-22T15:54:30.570-05:002011-12-22T15:54:30.570-05:00Grump...you are fully and definitively in the wron...Grump...you are fully and definitively in the wrong here on the friend/emotion front as you are right in the logic front. The correctness and conciseness of your math arguments hit home as well as the callousness of your act of outing her mistake in a public forum. Friends tend to overlook other friends' weaknesses, not put them up on public blogs.<br /><br /><br />And I agree with the previous comments...your apology is rates a D-...get off your high horse...put up a sincere apology and get on with the 99% excellent content on your blog.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-9383878971821597312011-12-22T15:10:24.232-05:002011-12-22T15:10:24.232-05:00First off this blog is called Poker Grump, not &qu...First off this blog is called Poker Grump, not "Poker nice guy" or "The swell fella's blog". But (to me) I could easily read a distinction between the two posts.<br /><br />With Josie I get more of a "Hello my friend, I like you but your a little wrong here" vibe (I felt a bit of a playful slap from the soft playing friends post).<br /><br />As I read your post on the Ante Up article I feel you soundly bitch slapped that fool. Which is just what was needed.<br /><br />Keep it up Grump!rice mooreheadhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15488215832263317255noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-13099437966044328722011-12-22T14:41:33.737-05:002011-12-22T14:41:33.737-05:00When I read the initial post I thought to myself t...When I read the initial post I thought to myself the entire post...... "don't do anything wrong around this guy or he will make sure the world knows you're an idiot." It is still mean even if you were not trying to be mean.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-88857307814418372482011-12-22T13:51:09.925-05:002011-12-22T13:51:09.925-05:001. Grump did not intend to be mean in his post abo...1. Grump did not intend to be mean in his post about Josie.<br /><br />2. Grump does not perceive his Josie post to be mean.<br /><br />3. Josie (and others) perceive the post to be mean.<br /><br />Guess what? Logic doesn't apply to emotions. It's entirely possible for all three statements to be true. We all know folks more callous and more sensitive than we are. Funny things, human emotions. All we can do is attempt to consider our known audience and pitch the tone of our statements appropriately. If we miss and unintentionally offend, we need to apologize and file it away for future reference.<br /><br />(Yes, there are times when a statement is unambiguously offensive or non-offensive to 99.99% of folks. But most human communication is much more muddled.)Grange95https://www.blogger.com/profile/01857460215043659894noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-68248800061310694862011-12-22T13:36:41.075-05:002011-12-22T13:36:41.075-05:00Grump,
When a gentleman hurts a lady's feelin...Grump,<br /><br />When a gentleman hurts a lady's feelings, whether intentional or not, the appropriate course of action is to apologize.<br /><br />Technically, you've said you're sorry ... buried within the other 95% of the post which seems to justify your actions.<br /><br />For an apology, I give this a C-<br /><br />DVegasDWPhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/00150332887117733111noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-46070396929158191922011-12-22T12:28:23.263-05:002011-12-22T12:28:23.263-05:00Grump, a wise man once said, "If you are goin...Grump, a wise man once said, "If you are going to sing it, you better bring it." If you choose to blog and express yourself, you choose to have your opinions critiqued and corrected. People that know you, know that you did not intend to put Josie on blast, rather point out some commonly held poker concepts that are wrong. Unfortunate for her that her analysis followed a poker "coach" that makes the same errors. Don't feel bad, you were a gentleman. Andrew just wants to ride the white horse.<br /><br />- Your friend in SCAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-88737181996465005872011-12-22T09:31:52.235-05:002011-12-22T09:31:52.235-05:00I personally find your writing exactly the way you...I personally find your writing exactly the way you described. No malice was intended, and I agree that the author in the publication (and Josie as well) should check on their facts before publication.<br /><br />No one is perfect and you have always been the first to admit when you've made a mistake or been wrong. So why do friends of Josie take this so personally? Your article spelled out what was wrong and explained it to the point where even I understand it now.<br /><br />Could you have sugar coated it? Sure. If the perception by Josie and her fans felt you ridiculed her/abused her then, as was written, nothing you can change about that. People love to "read" things into thought/musing/spoken word all the time and nothing will change that. <br /><br />I, for one, felt the article was well written, concise and factual. Maybe that's what irks some people..Many don't like being proven wrong by logic.<br /><br />Keep up the good work and I am sure Josie, and the every lovely Cardgirl, will forgive and forget.Wine Guyhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02810137648194529582noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-69518654423541691552011-12-22T07:42:18.033-05:002011-12-22T07:42:18.033-05:00I think the only place where I bristled upon readi...I think the only place where I bristled upon reading that post was where you used the word 'absurd' in relation to her reasoning - it sounded too personal. There was also a tone that just wasn't especially kind or thoughtful, like some of the phrases Lightning highlighted. There was an instance where you criticized how she played tournaments a month or so ago, and while it was an astute observation it might have felt like a one-two punch. I wasn't going to post anything about it but what the anonymous person said is correct - if someone perceives that you were mean, then you were. It does seem that you attempted to apologize (though you even drag out the definition of mean as if to prop up the contention that you did nothing wrong), and while that's fine, I hope you took the time to send her a private note on your own to hit that home. For what it is worth, your attention to detail and interesting posts are why people like myself read and enjoy your blog. No one wants to see that go away.edgie212https://www.blogger.com/profile/08659743336657778426noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-61091053520858606202011-12-22T07:26:21.960-05:002011-12-22T07:26:21.960-05:00You Prick!
Just Kidding, I read both of your blog...You Prick! <br />Just Kidding, I read both of your blog's everyday. I felt you were like a teacher correcting a student on her poor math test. <br />Not mean at all.<br /><br /><br /><br />MattAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-5954232736214100462011-12-22T04:44:46.957-05:002011-12-22T04:44:46.957-05:00I think what happened here is that she felt like a...I think what happened here is that she felt like a friend held her up for public ridicule. Specifically, these lines stood out for me:<br /><br />"Lord knows I've made more than any blogger's share of mathematical mistakes in the course of five years of writing about poker. I kind of doubt, however, that I've ever made as many in one post as my pal Very Josie did earlier today."<br /><br />"It appears that being an accountant is not enough to get it figured out correctly."<br /><br />"Josie's post said that she is twice as likely to hit one of her outs on the turn as on the river. A moment's reflection should reveal that that is an absurd conclusion."<br /><br />Another factor, I would guess, is that Josie's posts rarely venture into the more cerebral side of poker and she was taking a risk. The result: BOOM!<br /><br />I tried to tell her that the post was just you being you, but the hurt was there regardless. As much as Josie attempts to act tough, she is in some regards a sensitive soul. Fortunately, she is often able get past her hurt feelings and has even been able to let a sometimes insensitive clod like me off the hook.<br /><br />Just my two cents.lightning36https://www.blogger.com/profile/05641629003610446976noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-1912277803195094022011-12-22T04:29:40.287-05:002011-12-22T04:29:40.287-05:00Rakewell,
I am a huge fan of yours - ben reading t...Rakewell,<br />I am a huge fan of yours - ben reading this blog for a long time. Just remember what ended up happening to Nomad. It's all about perception. If she thought you were mean, you were mean. No amount of explaining will change that. Apologize and move on. Do you want to be right and lose a friend or apologize and keep a friendship. You are quite a smart guy especially as it relates to the math of things. If you felt an obligation to point out her error, maybe a private message would have sufficed? Just my two cents...<br />Take careAnonymousnoreply@blogger.com