tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post6428073030678400097..comments2024-03-05T08:25:01.029-05:00Comments on Poker Grump: Playing scaredRakewellhttp://www.blogger.com/profile/15873391354585352712noreply@blogger.comBlogger21125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-65709709677191304112012-02-02T13:32:34.323-05:002012-02-02T13:32:34.323-05:00Having read Tony's blog in the past, I think y...Having read Tony's blog in the past, I think your analysis is spot on. In this particular case it's a clear cut example, not acting on the turn or the flop can only be related to fear. <br /><br />It's also something I'm consciously aware of in playing cash vs tourneys. I don't do well in cash, as I don't treat the chips like tools. It's money to me there, and until my bankroll meets that level, I'll always have that problem. For a tournament, the buyin is done and utilizing those chips is just a means to an end, completely different approach.Michaelhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17190937282558817928noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-17994995931263415422012-02-01T22:19:39.038-05:002012-02-01T22:19:39.038-05:00POOP... that is great. Adding that to my knowled...POOP... that is great. Adding that to my knowledge base. thxvookenmeisternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-1714267230418826892012-02-01T19:48:44.226-05:002012-02-01T19:48:44.226-05:00I was just reminded of this, which I wish I had th...I was just reminded of this, which I wish I had thought of in time to include in the post: <br /><br />Tommy Angelo, in Elements of Poker, p. 21, in list of poker terms he has coined: <br /><br />POOP -- Acronym for "passively out of position." Sometimes I play POOP.<br /><br /><br /><br />http://pokergrump.blogspot.com/2009/05/poker-gems-245.htmlRakewellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15873391354585352712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-40406977184828256302012-02-01T17:41:44.505-05:002012-02-01T17:41:44.505-05:00I'm dead on with grump on this one.
Tony prot...I'm dead on with grump on this one.<br /><br />Tony protects his wins. I really appreciate Grump's detailed analysis about playing scared. Despite what Tony says, this is 100% what occurred.<br /><br />now as far as playing the AA post flop and why you bet, what you don the turn, etc. <br /><br />as grump says, it depends...<br /><br />The quick answer is it is all about hand ranging. I am betting this flop to get value from the range of hands that will call me. If I do get called or raised, then I need to reassess the range of my opponent(s) and proceed on the turn based on what the turn card is. In some cases, I will slow down on the turn. I do this partially for pot control and to keep hands like lower pairs happy and still in the hand for value on the river. If my opponent(s) check behind on the turn, then I will bet most cards for value on the river. <br /><br /> If someone has a J I am going to lose money. How much money depends on my view of the opponent? I might not go broke on this hand. If a loose crappy calling station calls me on the flop whose range includes 22+, any card, and a toothpick then I am going to lose my ass if they actually have a J and hit trips on the flop. On the other hand if somebody who is tight as hell or in lock up mode like Tony calls me (or raises me on the flop) then I am completely shutting down and will often check/fold the turn even with AA. Please note that I actually folded my AK on a flop of A105 or something like against Tony. I knew his range had me crushed when he calls or raises my flop bet. So it's all about hand ranging. I do not see any reason to slow play this flop against 3 people. It's ok to do it as usually you are way ahead. However, with 3 other people in the pot there are a lot more mystery outs and our hand is not a lock and unlikely to improve. Also, many folks will still put you on two overcards thinking you are cbetting and will call with mid-pairs. If I am heads up I might check flop depending on the opponent but I am doing it more to get value later than I am for pot control.<br /><br />but most of all what I do after the flop.... depends!Vookenmeisternoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-38733262423248626172012-02-01T17:12:40.355-05:002012-02-01T17:12:40.355-05:00Thank you for this post, Grump! I never really th...Thank you for this post, Grump! I never really thought about why I have a huge preference for tournaments over cash games. I think I have a tougher time playing cash games for this specific reason, Too often I'm looking at my profits as "my money". Obviously, It's much easier in tournaments to seperate the 2. I'm up in both, however, I'm closer to even in cash games and I'm waaay up in tournaments and I bet this is(was) my big leak! In regards to the hand, I think Tony lost himself all kinds of money playing this hand, he should've just folded it preflop... He loses value from anything that's not a J that would call on the flop, which is probably a lot, he loses money from Q-9 on the turn(we want Q-9 to call on the turn!) and he loses money when he calls a 4-handed river bet on a board of JJ4QQ...Also, not that it matters, we don't know how much Tony had, but he says nobody had him covered so he wasn't going broke on this hand.Frednoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-68469870503811163642012-02-01T16:56:39.078-05:002012-02-01T16:56:39.078-05:00As to the questions about decisions and actions la...As to the questions about decisions and actions later in the hand: As usual, it all depends. It can go a whole bunch of different ways depending on the type of player(s) you're facing, how many of them call on the flop, whether anybody raises, the presence or absence of any tells about their strength, their stack sizes, etc. It's a branching decision tree, with almost infinite different outcomes given the number of variables involved.Rakewellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15873391354585352712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-70384044993004216732012-02-01T16:00:16.804-05:002012-02-01T16:00:16.804-05:00When you checked your AA from up front, there was ...When you checked your AA from up front, there was no reason to think any of your opponents is holding a J. In fact, it is statistically less likely that they are. Were you intending to check then fold your aces based on the flimsy "think he liked the flop" read?<br /><br />Grump is spot on here. It's difficult for your opponent to have connected in a meaningful way on a board such as this. If you'd have bet even a small amount on the flop, it is likely the hand would have ended (assuming the eventual winner would have folded his Q high, no draw hand). Grump lists plenty of other scenarios in which you get called by weaker hands.<br /><br />Not betting the turn is criminal. Just to overly simplify the situation, your plan was to raise AA preflop and then check it down with 3 opponents?hfrog355https://www.blogger.com/profile/07693280860696461311noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-81582536255254269082012-02-01T15:48:32.914-05:002012-02-01T15:48:32.914-05:00If I felt that way about someone, I certainly woul...If I felt that way about someone, I certainly wouldn't waste another minute on their blog....let alone take the time to type remarks.....unless a part of me felt there was value or entertainment to continue doing so. Go back into your hole. <br /><br />Great post and commentary, Grump.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-13384998178660066592012-02-01T15:17:17.575-05:002012-02-01T15:17:17.575-05:00Because my questions are brilliant unlike your stu...Because my questions are brilliant unlike your stupid comments and must be shared with the world. I stand by my earlier statements about you.SirFWALGManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01310209706844541719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-60499074944734522062012-02-01T13:46:57.725-05:002012-02-01T13:46:57.725-05:00Rakewell -
Unlike Waffles I do not think you a mo...Rakewell - <br />Unlike Waffles I do not think you a moron.<br />So if possible would you answer his question?<br />Not for him, but for the rest of us who appreciate & value your insight.Aces & Facesnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-1476888921527730862012-02-01T11:14:55.408-05:002012-02-01T11:14:55.408-05:00Just my 2c:
TBC bet 12 and got 3 callers: Pot 48....Just my 2c:<br /><br />TBC bet 12 and got 3 callers: Pot 48. On the river he pays off 50 when the guy makes the hand (Q's Full).<br /><br />If TBC was planning to pay off 50 anyways, why not do it in parts.<br /><br />Bet 1/2 Pot on the flop. Lets say 25. Either he takes it down if no one has a J or a 4 (X4 or XJ) or gets smooth called (if someone is slow playing) or drawing. There is a chance that he can reduce the three callers to one or two.<br /><br />Pot: 98 assuming one caller. TBC investment $37. If there is a huge raise or min reraise then fold.<br /><br />Turn Q. Bet 40. The only player that would remain is the guy with the Q. If you see a min raise or huge reraise then fold.<br /><br />TBC's investment: 40+37 = 77 and for $15 more provides more chances for him to take it down on the flop or turn. On the river I would take it easy.<br /><br />GolfProAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-75430644504037008432012-02-01T10:20:57.049-05:002012-02-01T10:20:57.049-05:00hey i took your advice with teh mighty duece 4:
h...hey i took your advice with teh mighty duece 4:<br /><br />http://weaktight.com/4326915<br /><br />sent my opponent on full blown monkey tilt<br /><br />PS lol tbc<br /><br />-summerlinAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-52327856941918006052012-02-01T10:18:57.091-05:002012-02-01T10:18:57.091-05:00Really great post, Grump. And one I am going to h...Really great post, Grump. And one I am going to have to study. As a newcomer to No Limit (after years of playing Limit Hold Em), I find myself having the urge to be too conservative when I get up a few hundred bucks. I think I'm winning the battle but it is a constant challenge. Several times I doubled up very early in the session and then started thinking too much of how great it would be to leave with all those chips. Fortunately I usually was successful in overcoming this and thus several times greatly increased my stack. Of course, sometimes I lost most or all of my profits but in those cases I think I was playing correctly. One time I knew immediately I made an obvious error and promised myself to learn from it. <br /><br />But I do wonder on this particular hand just how much you are willing to risk with just an overpair?Robhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05767080296489122846noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-54277106599119663732012-02-01T09:50:51.154-05:002012-02-01T09:50:51.154-05:00@Tony: your inability to accept criticism of your...@Tony: your inability to accept criticism of your play is the reason why you continue to make the same mistakes over and over again.<br /><br />PG: I am with you 100% and this was one of the first things I thought when I saw the hand. Tony should have just mucked on the flop instead of checking because he was afraid to bet and create any action. Had someone bet he probably would have called down because he's afraid of being bluffed. Tony's biggest weakness in his poker game (other than VBJ) is that he has so many fears at the poker table.grrouchiehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03619493798073601300noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-72339158706613298572012-02-01T09:20:04.989-05:002012-02-01T09:20:04.989-05:00Great commentary- are there other blogs where you ...Great commentary- are there other blogs where you think the play and hand discussion is better?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-83178066537352714862012-02-01T09:09:52.989-05:002012-02-01T09:09:52.989-05:00"If at any point in a poker session you are n..."If at any point in a poker session you are no longer willing to risk losing all the chips sitting in front of you whenever you can get them in with an advantage, then that is the moment when you need to stop playing. Right then" <br /><br />Forget everything else about this post...this is THE point. Well played sir.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-39842450312683170612012-02-01T08:48:59.668-05:002012-02-01T08:48:59.668-05:00I am not at all judging the play by the results. I...I am not at all judging the play by the results. I would say betting the flop was correct even if you found out later you were betting into a full house, and I would say checking the flop was incorrect even if you won the hand. It happens in this specific hand that the results show why betting would have been right and checking was wrong--because a hand that would have folded to a bet got two free cards to become the winner. But that's just icing on the cake. <br /><br />I'm stunned that you still think you played it right, using the justification that "most of the time" it would save you "a ton." That's demonstrably wrong. Most of the time your opponents will not have flopped trips or better, and you're losing value by not betting. <br /><br />Just about the only situation in which I would agree to a check here is if one of your opponents--especially the guy on your immediate left--had a propensity to bet after you check in the vicinity of, say, 80% of the time or more. In that situation, you could legitimately contemplate a check-raise. But the obvious, straightforward play is usually the best, absent some very specific, articulable reason to deviate from it, which you simply do not have here.Rakewellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15873391354585352712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-52994324075627434142012-02-01T08:18:56.383-05:002012-02-01T08:18:56.383-05:00it kind of was a deepstack game. and the guy who w...it kind of was a deepstack game. and the guy who was last to act, just looked like he hit his hand. as always when the flop is coming out, i cover up the view of the flop and just watch the other players as they look at the flop, like i always have. and he was the one with the biggest stack next to mine. <br /><br />u are guilty of judging the hand by results, which u tell me not to do. most of the time, my play wouldve either saved me a ton if someone else had a jack, or made me a ton if someone caught up to a hand a little smaller than mine and felt i was only on AK due to me not betting. <br /><br />sure i didnt want to give back the win. But that dont make my play of this hand wrong.sevencard2003https://www.blogger.com/profile/05723960642218345696noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-90456960729080299252012-02-01T08:08:56.385-05:002012-02-01T08:08:56.385-05:00Waffles: Since you have already made it known that...Waffles: Since you have already made it known that you don't respect my opinions and think I'm "a fucking moron" and a "freaking toolbag," I'm baffled why you would bother asking for my thoughts on this hand.Rakewellhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15873391354585352712noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-49854007390894230842012-02-01T07:58:09.143-05:002012-02-01T07:58:09.143-05:00Interesting hand and post Grump. I am just curious...Interesting hand and post Grump. I am just curious where you go with the rest of the hand? Is this an automatic call if someone shoves? You always go broke on a JJx board with AA? Do you bet 1/2,3/4,1/4 pot?<br /><br />Once you bet the flop (which I think is a good play btw) and you get called then what do you do assuming a non-scary card like the Q Tony got on the turn? Are you again just all in since this is not likely a deep-stacked game? Are you betting again? Folding to a jam to your turn bet?<br /><br />The flop is interesting but it is also the cheapest and easiest to play street.. I am curious how you would finish out the hand if your opponent will not go away or puts you all in. I find it is VERY common at 1/2 for people to call your flop bet with almost anything.SirFWALGManhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01310209706844541719noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-36880087.post-89766823017666131952012-02-01T05:37:14.287-05:002012-02-01T05:37:14.287-05:00Great analysis. I believe that you nailed it.
So...Great analysis. I believe that you nailed it.<br /><br />So often you will see people playing with scared money. They will often openly discuss it at the table. When that occurs, my mouth starts to water and I know that I can easily get them off a hand.<br /><br />Good luck,<br /><br />snevmansnevmanhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/12518567369518175070noreply@blogger.com