Monday, July 19, 2010

Chopping the blinds

1.

A quick bit of background info, for the minority of my readers who haven't played much casino poker. In hold'em there are usually two blind bets required by the rules, so that there is always money in the pot to be contested. The players posting these forced bets are the last to act on the first round of betting. In most Vegas casinos, if everybody folds, and only the two blinds are left to act, the players can agree to "chop the blinds," meaning that they just take back their bets, relinquish their cards, and the game moves on to the next hand.

The reason that most players do this as a matter of course is that the great majority of the time the pot ends up tiny even if they play it out. Statistically, it's just not very likely that you'll end up with two hands strong enough that both players will feel like they have the winner and are willing to put more money into the pot. When the hand gets played out, either because house ruels don't permit a chop or because one player refuses as a habit, most often the result is that the hand just gets checked down, or, alternatively, one player makes a small bet and that ends it. It tends to take more time than the pot is worth.

The negotiation really needs to take only one or two words: "Chop?" is followed by a yes or a no, or a nod or shake of the head.

But once in a while, you get a guy who feels the need to be grandiose about it. His little speech will usually be some variant of this: "I'll always chop, even if I have aces. I don't even look first." I've heard that more times than I can count, and it just makes me roll my eyes. The tone is inevitably one of self-righteous moral superiority, and conveys a sense of, "I am a far better human being than those lowlifes who chop selectively."

The problem with this attitude is that nobody chops selectively, if there is a person with a functioning brain in the seat next to him. Once the person to your right (or left) makes a decision to chop or not to chop, and you agree to it, the two of you are going to stick to that for all future instances, unless you're stupid. I would never let the other guy selectively decide to play just his strong hands, and chop all the weak ones--nor would any other rational player. The result, if everybody thinks that way, is that whatever you decide the first time the question comes up will be in effect as long as you're seated together. And that, in turn, means that once chopping has been established as the routine, it will stay that way, no matter what the hole cards are.*

Of course, playing the hand out is the default condition, and both have to agree to chop independently every time. That means that, in theory, a player could chop, chop, chop, then see pocket aces and suddenly not agree to chop.** The hand would play out, but most of the time Mr. Aces will win only the other blind, and, in the process, earn the contempt of every other player at the table. He will also have effectively voided the friendly agreement for the remainder of the session, and the other guy will thereafter force him to play every hand. It's just not worth the hassle.

All of which means that the righteous smugness of the "I'll even chop aces" crowing is just empty, smug rhetoric. Yeah, of course you will, if you chop with everything else, too--not because you're such a great guy, but because the way the whole process works basically compels you to. So stop trying to look like there's something special about you.

Yes, of course I have chopped when I held aces or kings or queens. So has everybody who has played a lot. It's just like getting aces on a misdeal--you give 'em back to the dealer, shrug, and go on with the next hand. You do not get a star on your forehead for being angelic. It's just how things are done.


2.

Another common speech made in conjunction with the chop question is the morality tale. Somebody will relate a story in which a villain refused to chop, and ended up losing a monster pot. Again, I've heard more of such stories than I could count.

Regardless of whether the stories are true, I think they shouldn't be told. I don't think that any player should feel pressure to agree to a chop. I don't really care if the guy next to me wants to play or chop, as long as it's the same answer every time.


3.

While I'm on the subject of chopping, here's a related rant. What's the deal with players who feel that chopping is a right and privilege, and that they are somehow being wronged by a player who calls or raises, thus preventing a chop from occurring? These numbskulls apparently feel that chopping the blinds is some sort of positive good that they should get to experience, and they are robbed of it by somebody betting.

This ranks among the stupidest attitudes you can have at a poker table. You're there to play. You're there to win money. Chopping the blinds does not allow you to do that. It is a total waste of time. (Not a lot of time, but still.) There are reasons to think that chopping is usually better than the alternative of playing out two weak hands, which takes even more time, usually without meaningful profit to anybody. But every table seems to have at least one maroon who gets positively giddy when he gets to chop, and positively surly when somebody deprives him of that opportunity.

It is yet another in the long list of poker player behaviors that I see all the time, and yet cannot comprehend.


*There are some exceptions if one player has a hand that might hit a high-hand jackpot. Some players want to hold out the possibility of playing out such hands. But to do so necessarily involves collusion with the other blind to win that money, a practice that no ethical player will attempt to pull off or cooperate with.

**I occasionally hear that one card room or another has a rule that whatever any given pair of players first agree to, they must stick with. However, I have never heard this from a source that I thought was truly in the know, and I have never seen any attempt to enforce such a rule, if it does actually exist anywhere.

10 comments:

Pete said...

Years ago the rule at TI was once you agree to chop you must chop (and vice versa).

Enforcement can be difficult because of dealer changes. Two guys choppping may not find that issue comes up again for hours. Now the dealer who was there during the chop is long gone (and may not remember that it occurred anyway) so unless someone at the table raises the issue a dealer isn't going to know whether these two guys previously chopped or refused to chop.

Another problem is that situations change. For example in a full game I will chop if my opponent wants to, and I am just as happy to play it out if he doesn't want to chop. I don't like to chop 6 handed ... but will do so to keep the casual players happy. BUT I WILL NOT CHOP 5 HANDED OR LESS. Now if I chop in a full game and then we lose some players and we are down to 5 players I see no reason why i should be forced to chop.

The rule at the venetian is basically that once you agree to chop(or not chop) that becomes your new default option. You may call that off in between hands..... but if you haven't, then you are bound by your previous decision.

Same problems with enforcement...it requires players raise the issue.

MorningThunder said...

At Harrah is KC they have a bad beat jackpot. If a chop situation occurs the codeword is "cheeseburger". If you openly say anything about the bad beat the hand is dead. I have even heard dealers ask if anyone has a cheeseburger. Meaning a hand that can potentially qualify for the bad beat. Just silly.

NoMetal said...

I remember the first time I was at a casino in the SB when the BB asked me if I wanted to chop the blinds. Up to that point, I only played tournaments in the casinos and did not know what this chopping of the blinds was all about.

I looked at my cards and saw KK and told him, no I wasn't going to chop. I raised the BB and he was visably upset and called me. I led out on the flop and he folded.

He asked if I ever chop. Since I did not know what this was about I should told him the truth. Instead, I made the mistake of telling him, it depends on the hand. This reply set him off for a while.

Later, after I left, I digested all this and talked to others about what I may had done wrong. I discovered the etiquette mistake I made - either you chop all the time or you don't but you should not base it on the strength of your hand.

What is ironic is that I made more money off the BB because of my faux pas since I tilted him for the rest of the game.

Grange95 said...

Whenever chopping comes up for me, I always say roughly the same thing, "Doesn't matter to me, so it's up to you if we chop or play." Of course, if we chop and it turns out I had a good hand, I'll roll it over and groan about my bad luck. This would probably be unnecessary speechifying to the Grump, but then again, I've never been known for my economy of language.

bellatrix78 said...

I love the #2 guys, that get angry when you announce that you never chop. In LHE (which is what I mostly play) the value of the blinds is huge and most people suck at blind vs. blind situations. People that are angry, suck even more, haha.

What is horrible is the semi-collusion thing, when they ask you if you have a jackpot hand (suited connectors or pocket pairs) and if you'd agree to check it down.

MisterFred said...

I was playing in a 2/5 NL game once. The first time I had the option to chop (in the small blind), I found out the house still took a dollar (separate jackpot drop from the ordinary house drop)- from the small blind no less. So I only got one dollar back.

I had a good hand, but no going back out of pure ignorance, so I took my dollar and politely announced that I in the future I would no longer chop if I was the small blind.

Well sure enough, the next round comes up again rather quickly. I chop with the guy to my right when I'm the Big Blind (I was more than willing to take my whole $5 back), and the next hand I'm contemplating what to do with my pocket 10's when I hear "Chop?"

"No. I'll raise to $15"

Well this pissed off the guy in the big blind, despite the fact I'd warned him last time I wasn't going to chop in that position any more. If I didn't like the hand, I'd just fold and give him the spare dollar. But I had 10's.

He looked pissed, and raised to $40. Some instinct told me it wasn't just out of anger, or because he thought it was a re-steal. His disgust seemed to read 'this bastard's going to selectively chop and only play good hands, but I can teach him.'

So I just called.

The hand played itself when the flop hit As-10x-5s, and I check-raised all-in to felt the guy's AK.

He was pissed, as much because I'd been willing to chop in the big blind but not in the small blind as he was angry because of the chips he'd lost. To listen to him, I'd committed a terrible sacrilege to accept a chop one one side and not on the other.

But given the house's rules it made perfect sense to me, and I'd went ahead and given him earlier warning before, so I just smiled internally and counted my chips.

NerveEnding said...

I mildly disagree with one of your points. As Grange says in his comments, I always ask if the person wants to play, but I also tell them that I am always willing to chop. I also tell them that I will chop aces, not because I want them to know how high and mighty I am, but to subtly remind them that it is a matter of always/never chopping.

Michael said...

always do it or never do it. if the guy to my right never chops with me, we'll play it out. I, in turn, will always chop with the player to my left. consistency is key!

MGM is allegedly one of the places in town that has the gentleman's agreement that your first chopping decision becomes the rule. never saw it need to be enforced so I can't speak about it.

chopping is much more important in places that take max rake on the flop. in California, it's an automatic $5 drop (or even $6) where they take the max table rake ($4) plus an extra for the BBJ. ON EVERY FLOP!

so, if it comes down to blinds vs. blinds in a $1/$2 game, there's four bucks in the pot if you don't chop and don't raise pre flop. that money automatically goes to the house. so, if you check it down at that point you both lose money! In Vegas where they don't take the max drop it isn't quite as important but still, chop, muck, deal the next hand!

we've all chopped big hands in one of the blinds. but the people that "brag" about it miss the point. even if they have Aces, if your opponent has 7-2 off, no more money is going into the pot unless the flop comes 7-7-X, 7-2,X, or 2-2-X. typically the person who won't chop with aces will win the small pot or lose a monster so even then it's stupid not to do it.

I do agree, chop >= six handed, never chop <6 handed.

Anonymous said...

MGM does have a rule in place where if you decide to chop once, you are now committed to chop always.

Willrr said...

MisterFred: Interesting thought on chopping from the small blind and not the big blind, I kind of get why you did it (dollar rake thing), but that seems like a terrible choice, your equity from playing a hu pot out of position as opposed to in position WAYYYYY outweighs the chopping structure. You should definitely rethink that in the future.
Grump: The reason that people are happier when they're allowed to chop their blinds is obvious for the same basic reason. Even the best players have a negative expectation for hands played out of the blinds, in your life you are surely a loser looking at only hands played out of the small and big blind, why wouldn't they be happy when they get a $0 result from those positions, they're running above equity.
I personally don't chop ever, in addition to the fact that live players tend to play really bad b.v.b. the tilt factor that you send some old guys on is invaluable.