I was playing at the Palms last night and found myself with an extraordinarily difficult decision to make. I thought I would share it with you.
The situation is actually pretty simple on the surface. I was under the gun, looking down at Q-Q. I put in what had been my standard raise for that table to $15 (this is a $1-3 no-limit game). There was one caller in middle position. Then the small blind raised to $85. He had about $300 in chips total. I had about $400. While I was thinking about what to do, the middle-position caller looked completely bored and impatient--I was about as certain as I could be that he would fold, no matter what I did (which proved to be the case), so we can essentially leave him out of the picture, except for the fact that he has contributed some dead money to the pot.
This sort of problem obviously boils down to an assessment of what possible hands am I up against. If it's A-K, well, I'm not thrilled to flip a coin for this much money, because if I wait, some better situation than that will come up. On the other hand, I am a slight favorite (about 56%), so if comes to that, I won't object. If he has A-Q or J-J or anything worse, I'd be delighted to get as much money into the pot as possible.
The dilemma, of course, is that he could be sitting on K-K or A-A, in which case I'm about a 4:1 underdog. Those are the only two hands that have me worried.
Everything depends on what this particular player would do here with various holdings, so let me tell you about him. He's loud and obnoxious, just about my least favorite sort of person to share the table with. He's late 50s, wearing fancy designer clothes and sunglasses. He tries to tell everybody what to do. He thinks he knows the rules and procedures better than the dealers do. On about half of hands, he acts out of turn, just ignoring the player to his right--and he doesn't stop no matter how many times he is asked to wait for his turn. He absurdly flirts with the cocktail waitresses. He talks loudly with a friend at the table between hands in a language that I think is modern Hebrew--often during hands, too, no matter how many times the dealers remind him of the English-only rule. (Obviously, rules are for lesser people than him.) At one point in the evening, he opens a package that I'm guessing was a frequent-player reward from the Palms--some sort of carry bag. He literally just tosses the wrapping and stuffing paper over his shoulder onto the floor, when there was a wastebasket within six feet of his seat. He's just the sort of egocentric jerk to think, "Somebody else can pick that up for me."
As for his playing style, for the most part he's a pretty bad calling station. When he does get aggressive, sometimes it's with a rare premium holding, but at least as often it's with something mediocre that he is way overplaying--not bluffing, really, just oblivious to signs of strength from opponents, as if blasting away will resolve the situation in his favor.
He and I have had exactly one previous significant encounter, and I think it hugely influences how both he and I are thinking here, so I'll tell you about it. For the most part, I was playing perfectly straightforwardly. But of course I have to throw in a few change-ups. This was one of them. I raised to $15 from the cutoff position with a 4-5 offsuit. This guy was my only caller. The flop came what turned out to be an absolutely perfect Q-4-5, because he was sitting on A-Q. He checked, I bet just under the size of the pot. He called. Turn was a 10 and the fourth suit (so no flush draws possible). Again, check, substantial bet, call. River was another blank that I don't remember. He checked. I pushed all in for my last $109. He thought for a long time, then finally called. When he saw that I had won, and that I had raised with a lousy 4-5 offsuit before the flop, he cursed at me, and said to anybody who would listen, "Who plays crap like that?" and "How am I supposed to put him on 4-5 when he raises?" That, of course, is precisely the point of playing hands like that once in a while, but I guess that is beyond his comprehension. He said that he thought I had A-K, even though I hadn't played a missed flop like that at any time in the session. (Frankly, I don't think he pays enough attention to hands that he's not in to have any idea of what I am or am not capable of doing.)
He has had to rebuy a couple of times (including after that hand, which almost wiped him out), and both he and I know that most of the money I've made tonight has come from him. That history raises the real possibility that he is out for some revenge, and/or may be suspicious that my raise on this hand is more B.S. from me.
I'm struck particularly by the size of the reraise. Most players with A-A or K-K would not put in a nearly six-fold reraise. They would raise to $45 or $50, maybe as much as $60, but something that is easier for a weaker hand to call. $85 seems to me mostly likely to be J-J, maybe 10-10, and I would think Q-Q if not for the fact that that's what I have, making it highly unlikely that he has the other two of them. A-K is also distinctly possible, with him not wanting to have to play the whole hand against me from out of position, and thus raising enough to take it down now, or at least find out if I'm looking like I have the two hands he would be worried about, namely A-A or K-K. He could also do this with complete crap, with his enormous ego driving him to want me to fold so he could show me (and the rest of the table) a bluff.
I pretty quickly rule out calling. It's not a terrible move, but I think it's the worst of my three choices here. If I call and the flop has an ace or king and he bets at it, I can get away. But the only reason to get away in that situation is if he has A-K. If he has A-A or K-K, I want to get away from it now, not before I give him an additional $70. Worse is that he might bet at such a flop with J-J or 10-10, in which case I will give him $70, then fold way the best hand. So I rule this out, and decide that I have to choose betwen folding and moving all-in (because there is no point in a smaller raise).
Folding is a real possibility. I'm ahead for the session. I've got a comfortable read on this table and think I can continue to play profitably without a lot of risk of losing my whole stack. I've only invested $15 on this hand. But there is this huge consideration: You've heard that money you don't lose is just as valuable as money you win. That's undoubtedly true. But it's also true that money you don't win is just as lost as money that you did actually lose. In other words, it's not true that folding means merely a $15 loss. It also means the loss of almost $300 that I might have won. The opportunities to win $300 in one shot in a $1-3 game are few and far between, and I don't want to miss one, if the situation is a right.
Raising all-in is the other viable option. If he has 10-10 or J-J, I think he will probably fold, guessing that I have A-A or K-K, especially since I raised from the one-hole, and I'll have $100 in profit with no further risk--not a bad outcome at all. But, of course, I'm happy to have him call with J-J or 10-10. I can't decide whether he is more likely to call or fold with A-K, but it doesn't much matter, because I'm essentially neutral about such a call. There's a small chance that he would fold K-K, fearing that I have A-A, but it's not really very likely. The argument against the raise here is the old "you'll only get called if you're beat." That's not quite true here, because of all of the A-K combinations he could have, but still, if he calls, I'm going to dread seeing his cards.
Here's the math: According to Poker Stove, if I have Q-Q and my opponent's range is A-A, K-K, Q-Q, J-J, 10-10, and A-K, given the frequency with which he might have all of those, and the possibility of us splitting the pot, my equity here is 52.4% to his 47.6%. I didn't know that precisely at the time, of course, but it wasn't hard to guess that it was going to run just about 50/50. That's because I'm exactly as far ahead of 10-10 and J-J as I am behind K-K and A-A, against the unlikely Q-Q we're exactly even, and against A-K I'm a slight favorite. Surprisingly, even if we remove 10-10 from his range, I only drop slightly in equity, down to 47.4%, so still just about even.
So there's the situation, in as much detail as I think I can relate it. What should I do? I'll return tomorrow with the end of the story.
Tuesday, August 12, 2008
What should I do?
Posted by Rakewell at 9:01 PM
Labels: palms, remarkable hands, strategy
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22 comments:
raise and push...he overbet.
Fold. If he pushed you off the best hand, congratulations to him. He won $15 off you. You doubled up thru him. I try to avoid what I feel would be a coinflip situation for that much especially when there is what? $34 (your raise + 1 call + blinds) in the pot to begin with? No no no. He sounds like a loose cannon. I say fold and wait for a better spot to hopefully arise against him.
Fold. His raise indicates that he has committed himself to the hand. Avoid the coinflip and wait for a better spot.
Raise Raise and then Raise again if they let you.
He is MUCH more likely to have TT or JJ than AA or KK. The rest of the possible hands cancel each other out.
Here is why. Get inside this clown's mind for a second. I know its hard, but try.
Guy is a hyper aggresive macho man from everything you have said. Same guy got basically felted by you earlier in the session so he wants you BAAAAAD.
Now lets think about what this guy is thinking when he looks at his cards.
Option #1, guy sees AA or KK and sees your raise. He wants to stack you so he is gonna be as tricky as he can be, which to him is either a min raise, or even a flat call in the hopes of getting you later.
Option #2, guy sees TT or JJ and sees your raise. He doesnt want to take a flop against the guy who felted him with rags so he is gonna raise you off it right now.
I would be shocked if you were up against AA or KK here. AK is also possible, but huge raises with AK are rare.
Only thing that changes my mind a little is that you posted the hand in such detail, which is usually the #1 sign that you either were dominated, or got nailed on the flop with a T or J to burn you.
Either way, great post and I look forward to the results.
Fold here. He has a grudge against you and doesn't respect your play. If has aces or kings he will be frusterated by your fold and more likely to play extra hands to get money off you. If he is bluffing he will be likely to raise you in the future when you are in a better spot. I think he thinks you are wilder than you are and he has aces here, but I think you went allin here, got lucky and busted him.
Fantastic blog, best out there right now btw.
My first step would be to try to get more information about his hand by talking with him. Doesn't seem like the kind of guy that would be quiet. I would include a few more pocket pairs and ace/paint in his range from how you described him. Would make it better than 50/50. But going with your read/if I couldn't get any more information from this guy, you should lay it down. Let your position on this guy work and let the calling station get his money close to dead.
The other hand, where you raised with 4-5, that probably left him waiting for revenge. He see’s you raise to $15, I think he could be on anything from A-10 to better, or a pair of 10s or better.
I wouldn’t be surprised if he showed A-J suited or something, I think I’d have to move all-in on that hand.
I agree 100% with Ray.
Stellar post! With no previous experience with the dude, I think you have to fold.
But this guy is a headcase and is trying to push you off your hand. Don't forget that he might of put in this 6x reraise b/c of the cold caller, but then again I tend to agree that the reraise is too big for AA or KK.
He's got it out for you... I push all in. Wouldn't be too surprised if he turned over low pair or AQ again.
I think he's outside your predicted range here. He overbets with J-10 or 9-10 suited, because he wants to do the same thing to you that you did to him, but with slightly better cards.
He also knows he's got live cards, and to him, if you call he will push on any flop, unless it really connects with him at which point he will check trying to trap. He will fold to your re-raise.
Based on this and his reaction and the above read, call it down when he pushes- you're way ahead and all of his chips are going into the pot anyway.
-JP
AS you describe Villain I would say push. But with that said there is something to be said for learning to fold QQ preflop ...
If you push him all in and lose, you will be down approx $100 to this dirt bag. You have a good hand, but not great, I personally don't like a coin flip for this type hand. Any ace-rag even king-rag has the potential to really make you pissed off. Fold then smile and wait. But I have the feeling that you won the hand.
Your previous encounter with him when you won with 4-5 is significant here. Despite his bravado, he is probably very insecure about his skills after the flop and is afraid to play you out of position after the flop. The size of his raise also indicates he has a good, but vulnerable hand.
I discount pocket aces or kings as he would derive no delight in winning only $15 from you and having you fold when he holds such a powerful hand. I would include in his range A-Q, A-J suited, K-Q, pocket 9s and pocket 8s.
I would raise all in givent he size of his remaining stack (easy for me to say when its not my money). I hope you beat him.
his raise is too big, I shovel it in.
WillBG says, "You have a good hand, but not great".
I don't agree with this. It's the 3rd best starting hand in hold'em.
Unless you can put him on specifically AA or KK I don't see how you can fold. I don't think you or anyone can.
Based on your description of him and the history between the two of you... Push! If he has AA or KK then "pay the man his money", or suck out.
I would avoid giving him too much credit for reading you. My biggest mistake is assuming my opponents think the same way I do. You've been observant of him, but that doesn't mean he's observant of you. Does he have a read that he would think you have 4-5 this hand? Is he re-raising some of those hands you dominate when he just called with A-Q previously? Then past few times you've raised, what has he done? Called? Re-raised small? Re-raised big? If only called, then I think his re-raise is an actual sign of strength, and he doesn't understand bet sizing.
Since you're out of position, if you don't feel confident in reading his hand (in your Ace or King flops situatioin), it's actually hard to play your big pair well. Fold and wait for a spot when the equity is more definitively skewed way in your favor, vs. being even on the average.
Great post.
I hope to hear the big a-hole takes another beating.
I think you left out A-Q from his possible holdings. It's a little farfetched but he may even have A-J or maybe even any AXs.
I want you to have called. And purely by the odds and his potential for bluffing or overplaying this is probably the mathematically correct thing to do.
However, I say fold. There's no reason to flip coins for your stack. But my big reason, and I was thining it before I read it, you're only going to get called if you're beat. Granted this dope, especially if he's targeting you, might call.
Fold.
gr7070 said...
There's no reason to flip coins for your stack. But my big reason, and I was thining it before I read it, you're only going to get called if you're beat.
I couldn't disagree more. To put this guy on only a big pair or AK is foolish. I frequently try to be conservative when judging my equity in a given situation, but to be this cautious would be akin to flushing money down the toilet (literally in the case of this particular villian).
I have never met this guy, but I could hear him telling everyone how he "had to call you" with his "pot odds" after you pushed, with his AQ, KQ,AJ, 99, 88, or even 77. Afterall, you might have 45 again.
To know for certain what he has is impossible. However, when you factor in the very real possibility of these other hands I mentioned above, your equity vs. this range has got to be 60-40 or better.
Give me this situation 1,000,000 times and I'll buy the Grump his own website, complete with an online poker room, immunity from the government, and his very own group of polite and respectful poker players who do nothing all day but call down the Grump with inferior holdings.
"I couldn't disagree more. To put this guy on only a big pair or AK is foolish. I frequently try to be conservative when judging my equity in a given situation, but to be this cautious would be akin to flushing money down the toilet (literally in the case of this particular villian)."
"I couldn't disagree more. To put this guy on only a big pair or AK is foolish. I frequently try to be conservative when judging my equity in a given situation, but to be this cautious would be akin to flushing money down the toilet (literally in the case of this particular villian)."
Well I couldnt disagree more with you. This hand sounds like if he doesnt fold QQ, preflop all the money is going in the pot at some point. Either preflop or on the flop. If he calls with QQ and the flop comes off with an A or a K (and thats like what? 42% of the time off the top of my head?), hes going to have a tough decision on the flop. If he pushes all in preflop and gets called, which I cant see the guy reraising that big and folding given his demeanor, he dominates JJ and TT only, wins only approx. 70% of the time (give or take a % or 2 based on exact cards and suited or not) vs AQ-A2.
First off I dont think your are giving his reraise enough credit. Grump states in their only previous encounter he apparently only called Grumps CUTOFF raise with AQ, then checked/called all the way thru the river with TPTK. That just doesnt jive with me and your analysis of his play now. This time Grump raises from UTG and this guy reraises. Thats the only hand analysis we have of this guy besides Grump other generalization
"When he does get aggressive, sometimes it's with a rare premium holding, but at least as often it's with something mediocre that he is way overplaying--not bluffing, really, just oblivious to signs of strength from opponents,"
Notice Grump says "at least as often" which to me means right about 50%. So according to Grumps own read, which is all we have to actually go on, there is a 50/50 chance this guy holds premium cards.
Only having invested $15 in the pot at this point, and there only being another $18 of dead money in there (the bb+middle caller who is folding), I just do not see the value of shoving my stack in. Grump also says
"He has had to rebuy a couple of times"
Which leads me to believe that patience is a virtue with this guy.
Let the hand go and wait for a more secure spot to get all the money in.
Excellent Blog...Thank you for your insight, expertise, humor and straight talk. Push and punish him (statisticall) for raising out of position with mddle pair like 9-9?
"He has had to rebuy a couple of times"
Which leads me to believe that patience is a virtue with this guy.
Not really sure how rebuying multiple times exhibits patience. It can easily represent the opposite.
Before I continue, let me just say that I respect your line of thinking as much as mine. There is surely more than one school of thought here.
That said, to be clear, I never suggested calling his raise. The play is clearly to push because if Grump's math of 52/48 eqity factoring only AA,KK,AK,JJ,TT is correct, then when you figure in the other hands that I am including (which I think you must)the equity rises to around 60/40 for sure.
I also think that waiting for a better spot when you are facing a guy who has already reloaded 3 times is silly. I rarely see players reload in a NL game more often than that in a session (although occasionally it does happen). Not saying we should loosen up because he is leaving soon, but getting the money in 60/40 is hardly a high-variance play.
Calling is the worst option and of the 20 comments, I dont think anyone suggested that, plus I dont think the Grump even considered it.
Anyway, lets all shut up because the Grump is loving every minute of this and will never give us the end if we keep debating.
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