Just finished two Bodog single-table SNGs, $10 each. The first was Omaha/8. I thought that might be fun. First hand I flopped top full house and clicked the "bet" button every time it was my turn. On the second hand, when somebody put in a pre-flop raise three times the size of the big blind, it dawned on me that something was amiss. I looked more closely at the game header and for the first time noticed that it was pot-limit, not fixed-limit. D'oh! I likely could have made a lot more on the first hand. Well, actually, I probably wouldn't have signed up for it to begin with, since I don't have a good sense of PLO8 strategy.
Saturday, August 20, 2011
Two Bodog SNGs
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Labels: my results, omaha, online poker
Wednesday, July 06, 2011
Pokerati game #2
Back in April I told you about my first attempt at playing pot-limit Omaha live--specifically the "Pokerati" game at the Palms, which alternates one round of no-limit hold'em and one round of PLO, each with $1/2 blinds. It was not exactly a raging success. But it was OK, because I'm learning, and losing some money is the price of achieving competence at a new version of poker. One just has to be careful to put limits on the losses along the way.
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Saturday, June 25, 2011
P L Uh-Oh
If you haven't already heard about the crazy 5-way-all-in-preflop hand at the PLO event at the World Series of Poker a few hours ago, go read about it here:
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11:53 PM
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Labels: omaha, remarkable hands, shamus, wsop
Friday, April 15, 2011
P L...No
I've been enjoying watching the pot-limit Omaha cash game on NBC's "Poker After Dark" this week. I had also noticed Pokerati's announcement that its regular $1/2 mixed NLHE/PLO Thursday night game had found a new home at the Palms, after some time at Hard Rock and then Aria. That was largely the reason that I chose Palms for my home last night--to at least watch that game for a while and see if it was something I might want to try one of these days.
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Labels: omaha, poker after dark
Saturday, September 04, 2010
Going nuts with the nuts
Can anybody explain the betting in this hand--or lack thereof?
Nice value check with the royal flush on the river.
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1:50 PM
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Labels: omaha, online poker
Friday, September 03, 2010
Monster of a game
I just had an idea for a poker home-game variant: Double-flop Omaha (which, despite the name, means two full boards), high-low, with mandatory run-it-twice turn and river. That makes a total of four boards, and pots that can be split eight ways, even if there are only two players. If there are more than two players, and some tie for some portion of some pot, it might get split, oh, I dunno, about 32 ways. The best part is that you'd get through about one hand an hour--play the hand, then spend 55 minutes arguing over who won which portion(s) and how the chips get divided.
"N0, no, no. Look, it's very simple. I get 7/16 of the top and 3/8 of the bottom, Jim got quartered on the top and eighthed on the bottom, Suzi gets 5/16 of the top and 1/8 of the bottom. No, wait--her two pair got counterfeited on the second river on the bottom, and she tied for the nut low with Randy and Lisa, so she only gets 1/3 of 1/4 of 1/2...."
Doesn't that sound like fun?!
Just don't make me the dealer.
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Labels: omaha
Monday, July 05, 2010
PLO gel
I just learned of the existence of this stuff called "PLO Gel," made by Transderma Pharmaceuticals.
What I can't figure out from the product information, though, is whether you use the stuff to help you play PLO better, or to quell the cravings to play this highly addictive game.
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Sunday, June 13, 2010
Worst scooper ever?

I'm in a HORSE tournament on Stars. A few minutes ago I won this pot with what I think might be the worst Omaha/8 scooper hand EVAR. It was limped pre-flop, and checked all around on every street thereafter. Even with nobody taking a crack at it at any point, I was surprised to have the winner on either half of the pot, let alone the whole thing.
By my count I had the 18th nuts on the high end (potentially beating me were 1 straight, 5 sets, 10 ways to make two pair, and aces in the hole for a higher one pair), and the only slightly more respectable 4th nuts on the low end (potentially beaten by A2, A4, and 24).
If you can tell me of a worse O/8 hand that won both the high and low sides of a pot--especially at a full table, with three or more at the showdown--go ahead and brag about it in the comments.
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Labels: HORSE, omaha, online poker
Tuesday, January 26, 2010
WBCOOP/PLO/OMGWTF
I've never done a pot-limit Omaha tournament before (at least not that I can remember). But that's what the WBCOOP schedule called for today, so that's what I did. I had no serious hope of performing well, with so little experience in the game, but it was a fun diversion.
I did get a couple of lovely-looking hands, though they didn't pay off at all well:

The game was easy at first, with hands like that. I also got AAxx hands ten times in the first 143 hands. Most remarkably, I won every one of them, mostly with a pre-flop raise, but once felted an opponent with KKxx when we both flopped sets.
That frequency of AAxx starting hands seemed kind of high to me, so I ran some numbers. If I've done my math right, there are 14,700 starting hands containing exactly two aces, and 270,725 possible Omaha starting hands, yielding an average probability of being dealt two aces of 0.0543, or about 1/18. My 10/143 is 0.0699, or about 1/14, so only slightly higher than average. And then I went card-dead, never seeing them again, so my overall tournament frequency was 10 in 209 hands, or 0.0478, or about 1/21, slightly less frequently than would be expected. (No, I'm not thinking that AAxx is necessarily a monster hand in Omaha. I get how it's different from hold'em. If you don't, see here for a primer.)
My first table might have been the easiest one in the whole tourney. There were five people sitting out who just got blinded off. Of the other three players, none was tricky. They would bet when they had something good, check otherwise. Even better, when I was on the button, the small blind was sitting out and the big blind would only defend his blind when he had a really big starting hand. When I was in the cutoff, the button and the big blind were both sitting out, and the small blind was that same non-defending player. I was thus able to steal relentlessly. When I was in the small blind, the big blind was sitting out, and when I was in the big blind the small blind was sitting out, with not too many steals going on, so I got lots of walks. Easy poker! I chipped up nicely and was sitting pretty for the first hour and a half or so.
But then things all went south. The sitter-outers got blinded off, I went card-dead, and some of the tourney monster stacks with hyper-aggressive styles got moved to my table, pretty much all at once. That's a bad combination. Predictably, my stack stayed pretty much static while the tourney average rocketed up. And I was toast.
In short, I can play PLO really, really well when (1) you hit me with the deck, and (2) put me at a completely passive and straightforward table. Give me some card trouble and aggressive opponents, though, and I wither away. Yep, that's me, the big-time pro player!
Here's how I went out:
At first I thought that he had check-raised me on the turn with nothing but the king-high flush draw (and I tweeted to that effect). It was only in looking at the replay that I noticed that he had a made straight there, too, so I can't fault him. But I had two pair, straight draw, and queen-high flush draw with a below-average stack, so I think that my shove was pretty defensible, and maybe the only sensible thing to do there. After all, even if I gave him credit for the straight, I wouldn't think that he would be so lucky as to also have one of the only two flush draws that would beat me, and even if he did I had the boat possibility. The odds calculator at cardplayer.com tells me that I was 58% to win before the flop, 67% on the flop, then only 25% on the turn. But I think it would be hard to be sufficiently confident of being in that badly at that point so as to make the fold, and, besides, it would mean being left with a really short stack in a fast-moving tournament. Players with more PLO experience are welcome to comment about whether I blew this hand or handled it reasonably.
Ah well. It was kinda fun anyway. Back to hold'em for the events of Wednesday and Thursday.
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Labels: math, my results, omaha, online poker
Thursday, May 21, 2009
PLO is TOTALLY rigged!
I'm watching the Aussie Millions Cash Game Invitational while I eat lunch. This rather remarkable pot-limit Omaha hand was featured.
Andrew Robl and Patrik Antonius get it all in on the flop. As you can see, Robl is a huge underdog to Antonius's monster draw.
They agree to run the turn and river four times, each being worth one quarter of the pot.
#1:
Antonius fails to catch any of the, oh, 87 or so cards that could come to make his straight or flush, so Robl's unimproved aces take it.
#2:
Antonius makes a flush on the turn, but Robl catches one of his five outs to make a full house on the river.
#3:
Antonius again misses all of his draws, and Robl get an unneeded straight just to rub it in.
#4:
Antonius makes the nut straight on the turn, but Robl hits a runner-runner spade flush!
One of the two men is happy about this outcome:
The combined probability of winning four out of four times when starting with a hand that has only a 27% chance of coming out ahead is about 0.5%. Are we supposed to believe that this happened just by random variance?
It's rigged, I tell you, RIGGED!
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Labels: antonius, omaha, remarkable hands, televised poker
Monday, April 13, 2009
Too tight?

I'm about halfway through Winning Omaha/8 Poker by Mark Tenner and Lou Krieger. It's OK, but I'm wondering if it is practical to play the way the authors suggest, or whether it could even be profitable to do so.
Maybe I should put the caveats up front: I'm far from an expert in the field. In fact, it's precisely because I always feel that I'm just making it up as I go along when I play the O/8 portions of my almost nightly HORSE tournaments that I wanted to read something to give me a more solid grounding in the game. I therefore have no vast fund of experience against which to judge their advice. Yet I'm still finding myself skeptical that it makes any sense.
Let's begin with their starting hand requirements. On pages 82-84, they identify seven classes of playable hands:
1) Any A-2.
2) A-3, if the ace is of the same suit with any of the other three cards.
3) A-3, if the remaining two cards are 10-pointers (i.e., would count a 10 in blackjack--10s, jacks, queens, and kings).
4) Ace with two other "prime cards," which they define as aces, deuces, treys, fours, and fives. Exception: Do not play any A-5-5-x hand.
5) Suited A-x if two of the cards are 10-pointers.
6) Any four prime cards with no ace. (I assume that they would exclude trips or quads, though this is not explicitly stated.)
7) Any four Broadway cards, unless you are dealt trips. (Presumably quads, too, though again this goes unsaid.)
They have more details about which of these are stronger than others, which features within each category make a hand more or less favorable, which ones are weak enough that you shouldn't play them from early position or after a raise, etc. But that's the basic formula.
Incidentally, I note that this list, while tight, nevertheless was not completely consistent with their earlier dogma, quoted here, about not playing hands containing the dreaded sevens, eights, and nines. For example, A-2-8-9 obviously fits into their category 1. The list also violates their other earlier-stated dogma, quoted here, about avoiding "three-legged stool" hands. For example, A-2-3-9 fits category 4, but has an obvious "dangler" (and violates the other rule at the same time). On p. 81, they write--in italics, even--"[D]anglers are the kiss of death in Omaha starting hands." I have so far found no attempt to reconcile this assertion with the list of starting hand requirements that clearly allow for some dangler hands.
After studying this list for a while, I got to wondering what percentage of hands one would play if restricted to these rules. I attempted to work it out mathematically, and came up with 81,882 total hands, which amounts to 30.2% of the 270,725 possible starting hands. However, I was highly unsure of whether I had this right, because I found no easy way to account for hands that fell into more than one category. For example, Ad-3c-Kd-10s fits into both categry 2 and category 3. Ac-2c-3h-10d fits into categories 1, 2, and 4. Because I couldn't be sure how much double-counting was in my total, I had little confidence in my conclusion.
*******
A digression. Long ago I read somewhere (can't even vaguely remember where it was now) about a college physics professor who assigned his class to determine how long it would take for the center of a one-pound roast to reach 180 degrees in a 350-degree oven. One student reasoned that beef was mostly water, and therefore used the known thermal properties of water to make a theoretical calculation. Another went out and bought a one-pound roast, stuck it in an oven with a meat thermometer, and waited for the target temperature to be reached. A third student called his mother, an experienced cook, and asked her for the answer.
The philosophical question raised by the story is which student would make the best physicist? The field needs theoretically minded researchers. But it also needs good experimentalists. And, finally, it needs those with the insight to perceive shortcuts.
********
So, finding myself stymied by the theoretical approach, I decided to try the experimental. Yesterday I logged onto PokerStars and found an insanely loose $0.02/$0.04 limit Omaha/8 cash game, ten-handed, with 49% to 77% of players seeing the flop (according to the stats in the lobby, which I checked periodically). Over the course of about two hours, I played exactly 100 hands, checking each one against the Tenner/Krieger list. Only 10 of them would meet the criteria. (Specifically, one each from categories 2 and 7, two each from categories 1, 4, 5, and 6, and none from category 3. However, I did not check carefully for multiple qualifiers, just chalking the hand up to whichever criterion I first noticed it would meet.)
(Incidentally, since nearly every hand went all the way to a showdown--this being a no-folding group of players--I also kept track of how many non-qualifying hands would have turned into winners. The 90 "don't-play" hands would have won four scoops, 14 half pots, 2 quarter pots, and, one time, would have chopped the low three ways for one-sixth of a pot. The obvious implication is that despite the questions I'm raising in this post about how tight is too tight, it's clear that the great majority of "reject" hands as classified by Tenner and Krieger really are dogs, with only remote hopes of winning.)
Ten percent was way under what I had estimated mathematically. Even with a fairly small sample, that was too far off for comfort. It was also taking too long. So I broke out a deck of cards and dealt myself another 100 Omaha starting hands. I found five in category 1, eight in category 2 (of which three would also have qualified in another category, but I lumped them all here), two in category 8, and none in categories 3, 4, 5, 6, or 7. That's a total of 15 "playable" hands out of 100, with 85 rejects.
This combined sample is now big enough for me to believe that the listed guidelines would actually result in playing about 10-15% of starting hands. I think that I must have messed up the math somewhere in my first accounting, but it's too much of a chore to go back and try to learn what went wrong.
I don't think there's anything intrinsically wrong with recommending a starting hand spectrum that tight--especially for beginners, as this book is explicitly aimed at. In fact, the authors trouble themselves to point out that more experienced players can profitably play a somewhat wider range of starting hands, because they are less likely to get trapped with good-but-not-quite-good-enough hands in a large pot. Fair enough. I certainly believe that to be true for hold'em, so I find it perfectly plausible for Omaha as well.
But the authors' obsession with avoiding second-best hands extends past their starting requirements, and this is where I began to wonder whether their full set of guidelines were really feasible.
They are positively fanatical about getting away from straight draws and even made straights if you don't also have a solid low to accompany it, or in the face of a possible flush. It's not hard to see why: straights can be beaten by higher straights, flushes, and full houses, and even if they hold up you may end up with just half of a pot. So I see the underlying wisdom and reasoning.
Still, their straight and straight-draw rules strike me as draconian and timid: When three low cards flop and you don't have the nut or second-nut low to go with your straight draw, fold it. If two low cards flop, draw to the nut straight only if making your straight won't produce a possible low, unless you have a strong low draw, too--and even then you should play it passively, checking and calling, rather than aggressively. With no low cards on the flop, don't play a straight draw unless you have at least seven outs to the nut straight or you have additional outs such as top two pair or top or middle set. Non-nut straight draws with bottom two pair or bottom set should be mucked. If the flop has two suited cards, you must have at least eight outs to the nut straight to continue, and play it check-and-call. A straight draw with two suited cards and two low cards on the flop should be mucked, unless you have at least the second-nut low draw to accompany it. If you flop a straight with three low cards on board, check/call with three or fewer opponents, and muck against four or more; with two low cards, also just check/call. If you flop the nut straight with no low cards on board, never raise without a redraw. If you flop the second-nut straight, fold unless you have at least six outs to the nut straight or a full house. Muck the nut straight with three suited cards on the flop; just check/call when two suited cards flopped.
You get the idea. Basically, they're trying to get you to recognize situations in which you could get trapped for a lot of bets which will prove to be the second-best hand, even if it is the best hand on the flop.
No doubt there is a lot of hard-won, painful, expensive experience speaking here. But it leaves me wondering what fraction of hands one would end up actually playing to the river under their guidelines. And I haven't even gotten to their chapters on playing the turn and river, where I assume there will be yet more advice to muck, muck, muck just about anything short of the mortal nuts. I get the feeling that, especially in a limit game, the very few pots eventually won will not be large enough to justify the large number of times one is folding out of fear of running into a better hand or winning just half a pot. I certainly don't know this to be so, and I am given pause in my criticism by the authors' vastly greater experience. But offhand it just doesn't strike me as right. My limited experience--admittedly against really bad opponents--is that it often does not take the nuts to win. When you have many opponents willing to go to the mat with 10-high and jack-high flushes, it seems OK to chance it with the king-high flush rather than always living in fear that the nut flush is lurking.
I am also concerned by the number of situations in which they advocate completely passive checking-and-calling play, rather than taking the initiative. That obviously goes against the most basic and universal advice of good poker: being selectively aggressive, and putting your opponents to the decision, rather than reacting to their actions.
All in all, I am left wishing that I could watch one or both authors play through an extended session and see whether they actually play as snugly as they are laying out in their book. My hunch says no. But I could be wrong. Lord knows that has happened once or twice before in my life.
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Wednesday, April 08, 2009
Poker gems, #235
Mark Tenner and Lou Krieger, in Winning Omaha/8 Poker, p. 42.
Patience in Omaha/8 means becoming a bit of an extremist. You'll play hands at both the big and small edges of the spectrum, but if you're playing correctly you'll throw away hands in the middle range. Imagine Omaha/8 as though it were a game with the sevens, eights, and nines removed from the deck, and that you'll play only cards dealt from that smaller but vastly improved pool. If you can hold that image in your mind, you'll do OK in the long run....
Play patiently, and don't play hands that include the dreaded seven, eight, or nine. While you'll win some of the time with those cards--actually, you'll win some of the time with any cards--in the long run you'll bleed to death at the table. Be selective, be patient, and, in Omaha/8, throw those problematic mid-range cards away.
Poker gems, #234
Mark Tenner and Lou Krieger, in Winning Omaha/8 Poker, p. 41.
Because you have four starting cards in your hand, representing six unique two-card combinations, you should play hands in which all four are coordinated in some meaningful way. Many of your opponents will be playing hands that include danglers, misfit cards that add little to a hand. Suppose you've been dealt Q-J-T-3. The three ten-pointers are components of a playable hand, but the trey is almost useless. You've got a three-legged stool with a dangler. Now, three legs might be sufficient if you were milking a cow, but they're not good enough to milk money from an Omaha pot.
Tuesday, December 16, 2008
Poker gems, #197
This is a special two-for-one, because I came across basically the same point expressed by two different people in just a couple of days.
Lee Jones, in Bluff magazine, September, 2008, p. 96:
I think that it may be profitable, if boring, to play PLO in such a way that all you do is wait to suck out on aces. Some PLO players, bless their hearts, never reraise pre-flop unless they have aces. So you call and then if you're beating aces on the flop, you get all the money in.
Jeff Williams, in Card Player magazine interview, December 17, 2008 (vol. 21, #25), p. 26:
You see many players trying to get as much money in as possible before the flop with A-A-X-X hands. I usually make this play only if I can get 35 percent of my stack in preflop, since then you can easily shove in the rest of your money on almost any flop. If you get too little of the money in preflop, all of your opponents know that you have A-A-X-X, and it's quite easy to put only the remaining chips in the pot when they have your hand beat.
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Labels: bluff magazine, card player magazine, jones, omaha
Monday, December 15, 2008
My first PLO tournament
Today was the first qualifying tournament in the PokerStars World Blogger Championship of Online Poker series. It's the first time I've tried playing pot-limit Omaha. The results were less than spectacular.
It started nicely enough. Here's the first hand of the match:
Whee! I'm the table chip leader now!
Here comes my big boost in the leader board, a short time later:
Here's a minor hand. The opponent here was a frequent bluffer, and I was simply taking advantage of that, plus the reputation I had earned as actually having something when I bet, plus having position, plus holding the all-important deuce-four. (Notice I flopped a straight draw with it, and the 3 surely would have come on the river, had the hand played out.)
Here's my next jump up in chips. I really don't know what this guy was thinking. He appears just unable to fold aces.
I snapped this screen shot of the tournament lobby at this point, knowing from long, sad experience, that this was likely as good as it was going to get, so I wanted to preserve evidence that at one point I was doing OK:
Sure enough, the decline and fall began shortly thereafter. On this hand I flopped the nuts, but then.... well, take a look for yourself.
That was my first heartbreaker--a 71/29 favorite on the flop. I correctly guessed that he had made a straight when he raised on the turn. I wonder what would have happened if I had represented making a flush on the river with a big bet. River card pairing the board sure would have been nice.
Then another smallish loss. I didn't have much faith in my trip 6s, so didn't lose much:
The next heartbreaker will look like I lost my mind ("went crazy," as Phil Hellmuth would put it), but I really didn't. This particular opponent, as noted earlier, was not only a habitual bluffer, but had been short-stacked for a while and raising/shoving very light.
So my judgment of him was right, and I got my money in as a 53/46 favorite, according to the odds calculator at www.twodimes.net.
The fall from grace continued after I got moved to a new table:
My end then came in two swift, pathetic hands:
But on that last hand, at least I picked a decent spot, going in as a 53/47 favorite.
And thus ends the sad tale of our hero's first attempt at PLO. I hope you all kept your hankies handy.
Tomorrow's qualifier is no-limit hold'em. We'll see if I fare any better with that.
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Friday, May 23, 2008
Poker gems, #121
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