Yesterday while watching Cardgrrl at the World Series of Poker, a small rule-related controversy came up related to getting a count of chip stacks. One player raised, another reraised. The first raiser asked for a count of how much the reraiser still had behind. The player responded by separating his chip stacks for clear view, but didn't count them or give a verbal response. The dealer then reached over, counted them out, and told the questioner the total.
Some of the players at the table thought this improper, and one even stopped a convenient floor person to ask (not so much for this particular situation as for future reference) whether that was kosher. These players had been under the impression that one was entitled to a countdown of an opponent's chips only if that opponent had bet them all; otherwise, one was supposed to rely on a visual estimation.
I was surprised to learn that some believed this, as I don't recall ever encountering a situation in either a cash game or tournament where the request for a dealer count (if the player in question will not do it himself) was refused or even questioned as being out of line. Still, I couldn't be 100% sure, because I had never had occasion to look it up.
Well, now I have. I found nothing about it in Robert's Rules, in the Tournament Directors Association rules, or in the WSOP rules. I also didn't find anything in the Professional Poker Dealer's Handbook. But the best two rule books in print do specifically cover this question, and they agree on the answer:
Cooke’s Rules of Real Poker, by Roy Cooke and John Bond, p. 47:
8.01.08. Right To Know Money
A player has the right to know the
amount of money an opponent has in play. All players are entitled to an
unimpeded view of the chips and cash of all opponent, and a count of an
opponent’s cash and chips. That said, a player shall not unreasonably slow down
the game by repeatedly asking for a countdown of his opponents….
The Rules of Poker: Essentials for Every Game, by Lou Krieger and Sheree Bykofsky, pp. 50-51:
2.26 Chips In Full View
Players have an absolute right to know how
much money every opponent at the table has in play. Consequently, all money in
play shall be in full view at all time…. Before acting in pot-limit or no-limit
games, a player has the right to ask the dealer to "count down" his opponent’s
chips.
So there you go.
I don't know where began the idea that a player had to rely on his own ability to estimate an opponent's chip stack, but I had never heard it before yesterday, and as far as I can tell it has no support in standard sources for poker rules.
I think the rule as quoted above also makes best sense. You can't rely on the opponent to do the count (because they may screw it up, deliberately or otherwise, particularly in a moment of high-intensity pressure). Also, players vary in their visual acuity, and a rule that penalized a player for not being able to see the length of the table clearly would be unfair.
If any reader has come upon a casino that did not allow the dealer to do a countdown, either in cash games or tournaments, and forced players to rely on their own estimating ability, I'd like to hear about it via the comments.
Addendum, October 3, 2009
I finally saw a case in which a player was a refused a count of his opponent's chip stack. I posted about it here, and hope to get replies from the management of the poker room involved. With any luck, such replies will follow my post there.
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9 comments:
Like you, I've played in casinos a lot, but my play is mostly tournaments.
A good dealer will ask any player to put the big denominations chips in front. A player may not ask for a count if he thinks it may give away his hand or strategy. This makes it easy to have an idea.
When asked, players usually count out the chips. In doing so, they are in plain sight. If he goofs, however, a dealer is supposed to step in and say something (where I play they are good dealers and they do so).
If I'm asked, I always count. But if I were playing against Phil Helmuth and he asked (to try and get information by what I say and how I do it), I would let the dealer count it down.
So, when the dealer reached over and counted, he was acting exactly how he should.
P.S. I'm surprised it wasn't covered in Robert's Rules of Order.
We discussed this rule at great length at the TDA Summit this past Tuesday. You will see this spelled out in future TDA rules.
I had a player request a count of another players chips and the other player flatly refused to do so and insisted on having a floor called over. The floor obviously ruled that player one is entitled to that information. Player two claims that he had very recently played in a tournament at the Bellagio where the floor ruled that, as long as the chips were clearly viewable, a player is not required to give an exact count. If that is true, that may be where the confusion is coming from. As a dealer, I would not reach across and count down the chips as my first action. I would inform the player that he is required to provide a count and offer to count the chips if he did not want to do so. If the player okays it I count the stack, if not, I call the floor and count the stack at the direction of the floor person. I do not think the dealer is right in doing something that a player has clearly indicated that they think is incorrect. That is the reason floor people exist. Dealers make mistakes as well as players and it is always better to let management make a decision when there is any kind of controversy. Prevention is usually easier then correction.
When I learned how to play poker, I was taught that you never count your own chips when someone asks how many you have behind your bet. The dealer would count them for you. Seems right.
Hard Rock---you must have all chips shown, but there will be no counting down. I have seen two floor people have this rule over the last 8ish months. I had thought this was the general rule.
This rule is in place at my local room. You can't ask for a count unless the player is all-in.
I am pretty sure that some misunderstandings of this rule come from the dealer not being able to count out the pot. A player is forced to visually estimate the pot and a few people I have played with try to extend this rule to stacks as well.
Rakewell is being kind. I was, of course, the person who asked for the rules clarification. I had, in fact, somewhere picked up the notion that a dealer count was only an option when a player is all in. (I am not alone in this; many others I play with have this understanding as well.)
I am pleased to be set right on the matter.
You're not wrong, Cardgrrl. There is no "rule" as of right now. At some casinos a player is not entitled to anything other than a visual of the chips. In other casinos the dealer will count down the chips if a player will not do it himself.
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