On last night's "Poker After Dark," Phil Hellmuth missed his straight draw, but bet on the river as a bluff. Jean-Robert Bellande (the poker player who was on "Survivor" last season) reluctantly called with third pair.
Hellmuth says, "You got it. Good call." But he doesn't show his hand or throw his cards away. Bellande waits for him to do one or the other.
Hellmuth launches into a lecture about proper poker etiquette. He insists that etiquette requires Bellande to show first in this situation, while acknowledging that the rules require him (Hellmuth) to show first. Bellande calmly and politely disagrees. Shawn Sheikhan--one of the very few players in the world more ill-behaved at the table than Hellmuth--chimes in on Phil's side.
Are there any two players in the world with less credibility on proper poker etiquette than these two clowns?
Hellmuth, as so often is the case, is dead wrong here. There is no case in which the rules prescribe one action and etiquette the opposite.
I've been in Bellande's situation countless times, and I will sit there all day or all night until my opponent figures out that the game isn't going anywhere until he fulfills his obligation. If he doesn't want to show his bluff, fine, he can toss his cards in the muck, and I'll take the pot. If he wants to see what I called him with, he can force me to show that I have the winner by turning over his cards first. But he has to do one or the other.
I've also had my share of times in the bluffer's seat. I don't think I've ever just mucked, but I don't hesitate to show my hand. I figure I've lost the pot, but at least I can get some advertising value out of showing the bluff, hoping that other players will remember it and call me down the next time when I've got the goods. And a couple of times I've been very pleasantly surprised to see the caller either muck or turn over a worse hand, and discover that I was bluffing with the best hand! Even if that happens only one time in 20, it makes it worth not just throwing away a bluff.
The reason for this rule is simple. Lots of scummy players will do what Hellmuth did, but with a hand that may or may not be the winner (rather than a stone-cold bluff that can't beat anybody who calls it), then say something like "You win" in order to induce the opponent to show first. Then, if the bettor discovers he actually has the better hand, he shows and takes the pot, but otherwise mucks. This is unethical, but perfectly legal.
I'm never going to let somebody shoot an angle that way, and the rule is set up to prevent it. I have no idea where Hellmuth got the idea that etiquette calls for the opposite of what the rule demands. It would be crazy to have every player in that situation torn between doing what the rule requires and what etiquette recommends. Fortunately, it isn't so. They are exactly aligned.
If Phil really believes that he's beat and doesn't want to show his cards, he can and should just muck them face-down--that is, make his actions match his words. If he holds out some hope that Bellande has called him ultra-thin and he might win at a showdown, then he should just flip his cards over without all the drama, fuss, argument, and time-wasting. If he loses, fine, move on to the next hand, and if he wins, it's a nice surprise bonus. The only conceivable reason that he continues to hold on to his cards while prompting Bellande to show first is the slim hope that he's holding a winner, which implies that what he wants to do is the unethical practice I just described: show if he turns out to have the best hand, and fold otherwise. Bellande is absolutely right not to let him try that slimy move.
Phil Hellmuth and Shawn Sheikhan giving lectures on proper poker etiquette. Wow. Has anybody checked on the temperature in hell today? Icing up a bit, I'm thinking?
Tuesday, January 15, 2008
Hellmuth is wrong again
Posted by Rakewell at 6:58 PM
Labels: bellande, etiquette, hellmuth, poker after dark, rules, sheikhan, televised poker
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3 comments:
Hey Grump,
Thanks for checking out my opinion on the subject as well.
It seems that great minds think alike. Keep up the good work. I'll be adding your blog to my rss reader.
Cheers,
Ted
www.redbullandpoker.blogspot.com
"...rules prescribe one action and etiquette the opposite."
I disagree.
Ex: EP raiser with AdKc opens and you call with 56dd
flop 2d3d4d
Betting and raising ensue when you assume he flopped an ace high flush.
Even if he pushes all in first, wouldn't you table your hand right away on the river?
Or wait for him to table his hand first so you can see what he was pushing with?
> If Phil really believes that
> he's beat and doesn't want to
> show his cards, he can and
> should just muck them face-down
I don't get it? Why on earth "should" Phil ever "just muck [his hand] face-down?"
Even if he knows that he's beat, he doesn't get any information about his opponent by mucking (and allowing his opponent to do the same).
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