Wednesday, October 12, 2011

More reason to be leery of Luvin/Everleaf

You know that $79 cashout from LuvinPoker (Everleaf network) I mentioned yesterday? Well, maybe not so much.

Because I had made my initial deposit using a standard Visa credit card, I picked that same route for cashout. Several hours later, I got this email:
I'm contacting you with regards* to your requested payout.

Unfortunately, we are unable to process your request as cashouts via credit card are not available for US members.

Due to above, I have cancelled your request and kindly ask that you choose Wire transfer, Western Union or Pic-Club as payment method for your outgoing transactions.

Should you require any further assistance, please feel free to contact me at anytime.

Kind regards,

Risk&Fraud Analyst

OK. Annoying, but not fatal to the project. I went back to the cashier page and looked more closely at the options. It appeared that, as laid out in the message above, only three were tagged as being open to U.S. residents: Wire transfer, which had a $200 minimum, Western Union, which had a $100 minimum, and an e-wallet service called PIC-Club, with no minimum listed. I really didn't want to go through the hassle and security risk of having yet another e-wallet account (I have about five already, thanks to poker sites churning through them over the years), but OK, whatever.

I found PIC-Club, set up an account, and requested the withdrawal.

A few hours later, this email arrived:
I'm contacting you with regards* to your requested payout.

In order to cashout via Pic-Club, a previous deposit needs to be completed using this method. This is to create a payment pathway. Without previous Pic-Club deposit the transaction would fail.

Due to above, I have cancelled your request and returned the funds to your poker account.

Should you require any further assistance, please feel free to contact me at anytime.

Kind regards,

OK, now they're really irritating me. They appear to be deliberately closing down every means of getting my money back, one by one, with a new excuse for every one.

I sent them this email:
I want to take my money ($79) off of your site. There are virtually no games ever going, and I'd rather put the money on a site with more traffic.

I first tried requesting a cashout using the Visa card with which I deposited. I received an email saying that could not be done because I live in the U.S.

Looking at your cashier page, two of the other methods that were highlighted (and thus presumably available to U.S. residents)--Western Union and Wire Transfer--are listed as having withdrawal minimums above the amount I have on account, so those are presumably not available to me.

The only other option shown as available was PIC Club. So I went to the trouble of setting up an account there, then requested a withdrawal from your site. Now I get an email from you saying that that option is not available because it is not how I made my initial deposit.

In short, you seem to be deliberately cutting off every means of withdrawal.

Tell me: How do I get my money?
The reply:
Thank you for your email.

I'm sorry to hear that you would like to leave the site and feel that there are not enough games going on.

Due to our card room having players from all over the world the time zone can some time come into play with the amount of players that we have online at certain times.

Our busier times are usually evening or early morning GMT, but obviously it varies from day to day and of course holidays.

It might be worth giving it another try and playing around the evenings and early mornings GMT; we have many US members playing at our tables at all times.

Unfortunately, although our US players are able to deposit with Visa, I'm afraid we are not able to cashout to US Visa cards.

Yes you are correct that WU, wire transfer and Pic club are all available cash out methods.

As you know WU and Pic club require prior deposits and as you stated the amount in your account that you would like to withdrawal is under the minimum that is required for a wire transfer cash out.

To withdrawal your money you could make a deposit with Pic club or WU so that you have the required minimum amount you need to cash out, and then withdrawal all your money with the method that you deposited with.

Please do not feel that we are cutting off your means to withdrawal, we have many US players that are satisfied with our deposit and cash out methods.

Please also be aware that unfortunately it is not easy for us to find payment methods for our US players which is why your options may seem limited.

Should you require further assistance please feel free to contact us back anytime.

Kind regards,

With this much hassle, I was getting more than a little paranoid. I could easily envision making an additional deposit as Rachel said would work, then trying to get a withdrawal, only to be told some BS such as the money had not been on the site long enough, or I could only take out the amount recently deposited, not the prior balance. I wanted to get a commitment from them in advance that the proposed method would actually work as suggested, plus point out to them how completely idiotic and inconvenient they were making things. So I sent this:
Let me be sure I’m understanding you correctly. I want to cash out $79. You are telling me that:

1) I cannot withdraw that money via any of your methods right now.

2) However, I could, for example, deposit $50 through PIC Club, then, as soon as that transaction is verified to be complete, immediately turn around and withdraw $129.

Is that correct?

If so, can’t you see how absurd a policy and practice that is? Why would you make your customers jump through stupid, inconvenient hoops like that, just to get their money back? How does it benefit either me or your company to make me deposit more before withdrawing the entire amount?
This reply arrived a few minutes ago:
Thank you for your email.

Unfortunately, after visa deposit the only available cashout option is wire transfer and the minimum cashout with this method is 200$. Therefore, a cashout of $79 is not available for you until you increase your bankroll to $200 or open a payment channel via deposit with Picclub or Western Union.

I would also like to confirm that as soon as you make a deposit with Picclub you can cashout your funds with the same method. Minimum deposit with Picclub is $25. Minimum cashout is $20.

You can also make a deposit with Western Union (minimum is $100) and then cashout with the same method. Minimum cashout is $100.

I can understand that requirement of prior deposit with the same method may be inconvenient to you, but the deposit is necessary to open a payment channel in case of both payment methods – Western Union and Picclub. Once you make a deposit with Western Union / Picclub, you can use the same method for cashouts numerous times.

If there is anything else we can assist you with, please contact us again at any time.

Kind regards,

Let's give them credit for this much: (1) Getting this many full exchanges of emails in less than 24 hours is as prompt as one can reasonably expect. (2) The messages are polite, clear, and obviously written specifically to my situation, rather than being bedbug letters. They could use improvement in their English grammar, but I'm letting that go with just a stern look of disapproval.

In terms of the substance of what they're telling me I have to do, however, it's still completely maddening, stupid, pointless, and suspicious of shenanigans.

Nevertheless, I will do as they instruct, make the minimum deposit via this e-wallet service, then as soon as that is confirmed, make a withdrawal of the entire balance by the same mechanism. We shall see if it works as promised. In case it does not, I am readying my arsenal of invective.

And even if it does succeed with no further hoops to jump through, I am completely done with this site/network. Between the lack of action and the transaction hassles, I could not recommend in good conscience that anybody hand money over to them. (Of course, the hassles are only one way. The deposit was taken in a matter of seconds, no questions asked. It's only if you try to make a withdrawal that they suddenly get all nitpicky and roadblocky and "I'm sorry, Dave, I'm afraid I can't do that" on you.)

*Yes, it seems that the fine folks behind this do not understand the difference between regard and regards. (If you are similarly confused, see here.)


sevencard2003 said...

i dont understand why u werent expecting that to happen in the first place when u tried to withdrawal, i am, and is why i havent deposited getting a prepaid debit card far safer than a check, it enables u to immediately get cash from an atm without worrying about a check clearing.

astrobel said...


I know it's soooo annoying to have to go through the hassle and uncertainty of depositing some extra money in order to be able to cash out what's yours.
However, in my experience with quite a few online poker rooms once you deposit through a new e-wallet that channel becomes available for you to withdraw. I have often deposit $10 and soon after withdraw $200 or whatever in similar scenarios to the one you describe.


DavidCF said...

At least you have a path to cash out at ALL. When Black Friday hit, I had <$100 in Stars. Now I can't cash it out (below the min), and I can't fund it up to a level where it's above the min, so I guess Stars plans to keep it. Their latest move is completely shutting down the .com client for US players and forcing us to use only the .net client.

Wine Guy said...

If you still have issues I would be willing to let you send it to my Canadian VISA and I would send you a PAYPAL payment upon receipt..

Enjoy the blog and would have no issues..

Rakewell said...

Thanks, but if they were to allow me to cash out to a Visa card that was not in my own name, I would consider that such an obvious hole in security that it would be another good reason not to trust the site.